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Thread: Nitrous tuning!!!!

  1. #1
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    Nitrous tuning!!!!

    Hey guys, I have ran into problems in the past, and Id like any input availible.....I have a Big shot kit on a 408 TFS-R headed windsor...It has a N.A. oriented cam in it, I usually run 175-225 hp shot, But, a couple of times ive tried jetting to 325. When I run 225, I pull out 10 deg. total timing, it works great. But when Ive tried to run 325 shot, i pull out 14 deg. total timing, but everytime I try it, It backfires through the carbuerator and bends the buterflies, any one have any tips.....thanks in advance.
    Torque Monsters Inc.

  2. #2
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    Sounds like your taking to much timing out. After you back fire have you checked your engine for linguring problems, Or bent valves?
    OK but seriously is that your caravan?

    85 LX 501
    60ft's 1.62
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  3. #3
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    Originally posted by 1_bad_5.0
    Sounds like your taking to much timing out. After you back fire have you checked your engine for linguring problems, Or bent valves?

    Thats exactly what I thought, I do not have a timing control or anything, so I set the timing before the pass, usally about 26 deg total, and of coarse it runs like crap on the line(loading up), and it usually go all to hell. But no, I dont have any linguring problems. The first thought would be to maybe invest in some electronics such as timing or nitrous controlers. Do you think that would be going in the right direction?
    Torque Monsters Inc.

  4. #4
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    NITROUS TUNE

    WHAT KIND OF DISTRIBUTOR DO YOU HAVE? IS IT LOCKED SOLID?STAY WITH ME ON THIS PROBLEM, i RUN 350+,WITH NO PROBLEMS WHAT-SO-EVER. i HAVE A PATTERN AND IT IS EASY TO FOLLOW.
    SCUMBAG LOW-LIFE BECAUSE I RUN NITROUS

  5. #5
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    857

    I run a factory ford distributor (duraspark), yes it has been locked down. BTW, any help you can offer is appreciated!
    Torque Monsters Inc.

  6. #6
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    one step at a time

    I run 33degrees initial timing[fixed],no advance what-so-ever.,350+setting 120n/116f. I take 11 out instantly off the brake. What do you flow your kit with? how many pounds of flowing fuel pressure do you have? Do you have a nitrous cam? I think you are taking out too much timing. I need all the details of your set-up! do not leave anything out. pumps,regs,flow tube style,what you are flowing it with. EVERYTHING!
    SCUMBAG LOW-LIFE BECAUSE I RUN NITROUS

  7. #7
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    nitrous tune

    timing control devices are great. Do not purchase a progressive controller at this time! It will only add to your dilema. lets get everything we can out of the big-shot standing alone to establish a base line and then move up.
    SCUMBAG LOW-LIFE BECAUSE I RUN NITROUS

  8. #8
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    i agree with 857 ! sounds like your taking too much timing out .

    seeya eric

  9. #9
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    I flow it with an autometer guage over a bucket to catch the fuel, I have it at about 6.5 psi, I dont have a nitrous cam, but when ordering the cam, tech said should work well with up to 300 hp shot, I run 114 (motor) 116 (research) octane sonoco fuel, I run a nitrous dedicated holley blue pump, with holley regulator, 8 an fuel line (braided earls), I do have an MSD timing controller, I use only one of the 4 adjustable switches right now, to set the timing down 10 deg (28 total) when using nitrous.
    Torque Monsters Inc.

  10. #10
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    nitrous tune

    do you put the plate over a bucket or are you using a flow tube? what jet are you flowing with?
    SCUMBAG LOW-LIFE BECAUSE I RUN NITROUS

  11. #11
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    Flowtube?

    What is a FLOWTUBE?

  12. #12
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    nitrous tune

    flow tube,used to simulate flow through the plate to adjust flowing fuel pressure. A "must have" for nitrous tuning. There are alot of methods for doing this and different styles of flow tubes. the tubes usually have a jet holder in the end or a hole drilled in a cap. you can purchase one or make your own. I have several different ones,ranging from 60.00 to 500.00. I do alot of my own testing and have used a wide variety of nitrous kits. low pressure tune ups is where I have the most experience. the 2 key items on a low pressure tune up are #1----$20.00 12-803 holley regulators,#2----A flow tube. If you dont have one. GET ONE! I am now starting to use high pressure tune ups,as i feel that i have maxxed out my low pressure tune up capabilities with the motor and suspenion that I am currently running. I have run 8.50's with an extremely basic set-up. I will not attempt to try to tune anyone wanting to go any faster. ! thing you will learn in this nitrous business is: dont listen to someone running 10's if you want to run 9's.
    SCUMBAG LOW-LIFE BECAUSE I RUN NITROUS

  13. #13
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    No, I was doing it with holding the plate over a bucket. You are correct about " dont listen to someone running in the 10's if you want to run nines"! Ive already been as fast as 8.91 in the 1/4 and 5.79 in the eigth, using 250 hp shot. But I feel I need to jet up to run faster. I dont have a ton of experience with nitrous, due to the fact that im all about some N/A action, or I was, now I want to go faster! I will check into a flow tube. You are also saying that you take out 11 deg right off the brake, how do you do that? Because I think one of my main problems is the engine loading up in staging, even before the nitrous hit, possibly fouling plugs or something to this nature.
    Torque Monsters Inc.

  14. #14
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    nitrous tune

    do you have a trans brake? and do you use it?
    SCUMBAG LOW-LIFE BECAUSE I RUN NITROUS

  15. #15
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    Yes, I have a brake. I rarely ever leave without it. I dont use a 2 step either, leave as hard as the converter will let it.
    Torque Monsters Inc.

  16. #16
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    nitrous tune

    use a two step.and activate the nitrous instantly off the brake.shock the suspenion! you can probably pick your car up with these tips without any increase in jet sizes. It is done with the 2 step and a relay. how are you activating you nitrous? tell me in detail how you do it. I'll guarantee your car will pick up!,with the instant on system!
    SCUMBAG LOW-LIFE BECAUSE I RUN NITROUS

  17. #17
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    Right now, I have a kind of complicated jig going. I built this module using a low current solenoid (not like a starter solenoid) what it does is....When the transbrake button is pressed, the solenoid depresses 1 momentarily on switch and one momentarily off switch, I have nitrous switch at wide open throttle, when the transbrake button is depressed, the transbrake operates...but the nitrous circuit is open, as soon as the transbake button is released....the nitrous circuit is a closed circuit, thus releasing the transbrake and activating the nitrous at an instance. But now I see what you are saying about activating a timing retard at the same time as nitrous. My MSD timing control has 4 channels, each when ground is removed, can drop up to 10 deg of timing, I can set it up so that when the nitrous is activated it will pull any amount of timing out at the hit, I was just sceptical in the past on whether or not the msd would indeed drop the timing quick enough....I know it will drop it within 1 second.
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  18. #18
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    nitrous tune

    get a flow tube set up and we will get in deeper. do not go by the pressure at the regulator, it will be higher. where do you guage the fuel pressure at when flowing your plate?
    SCUMBAG LOW-LIFE BECAUSE I RUN NITROUS

  19. #19
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    I will get a flow tube, and my guage is on the fuel solenoid, on a fitting just before it enters the solenoid.
    Torque Monsters Inc.

  20. #20

    Question flow tube

    Where is a good place to buy a quality flow tube? Is there a certain one you recomend? Thanks, db.

  21. #21
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    nitrous tune

    the cheapest flow tube you can buy is from nos,call the tech line,ask for mike nelson. GOOD LUCK getting through!
    SCUMBAG LOW-LIFE BECAUSE I RUN NITROUS

  22. #22
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    Re: nitrous tune

    Originally posted by 857
    get a flow tube set up and we will get in deeper. do not go by the pressure at the regulator, it will be higher. where do you guage the fuel pressure at when flowing your plate?
    Where do you suggest gauging the fuel pressure?? I have dedicated fuel system for my nitrous set up consisting of a holley blue pump, 3/8" fuel line to a aeromotive regulator. I am running a 8 AN line from the regulator to NOS Y and 8 AN's from the Y to my fuel solonoids. I am running a Sportsman fogger setup on a Victor 5.0 fuelie intake. I am setting my fuel pressure by takeing the 8 AN loose from the Y and putting a plug in the end of the line that has been tapped for holley carb jets. I flow back to a catch ca and set my fuel pressure. My pressure gauge is on the regulator itself.

  23. #23
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    FKY man

    If you read the pressure at the fitting comin off the regulator,it will be HIGHER than the pressure shown on the flow tube.lets say the flow tube for example is 2 feet long and the flow tube guage is in the middle of it. if you screw the flow tube on the fitting at the regulator and turn the fuel pump on, the guage at the regulator will be higher than the guage on the flow tube. if you don't believe it,try it. if you move the flow tube guage on down to the end of the flow tube the pressure will even be lower. Fly man,lets talk this out,I would like to bump heads with you about flowing and the different methods of doing so. My nitrous experience is with plates,I am now using a fogger/plate combo for about a 500/550 hp tune up. I will flow my kit the same as I have before on the plate set up. only this time I will use the high pressure tune up!
    SCUMBAG LOW-LIFE BECAUSE I RUN NITROUS

  24. #24
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    I'm hearing some stuff on here that worries me.....if i'm hearing it correctly. I hope that nobody is using a little gauge permanently mounted to the regulator. Those 1 1/2" POS will do nothing but fry your motor. You should have a 0-15 PSI gauge that is 4" in diameter minimum to get enough resolution to make accurate fuel pressure changes. Eever see the NX tune-up kit? John Phillips of NX loaned me his down in Reynolds this spring(thanks again John!!) and was it impressive. The gauge was roughly 8" in diameter and you could read pressure down to 0.1 PSI on it. Granted, it's around $250, but it's a nice piece. I use a brass pipe "T" with 1/4" NPT taps. On 1 leg i put a 1/4" pipe to 6AN fitting, one leg i plug, and the other i insert a 4" OD 0-15 PSI gauge. Directly across from the 6 AN adaptor i drilled and tapped a hole and inserted a Holley 71 fuel jet. All i do to check fuel pressure is break my fuel line at the solenoid, insert my gauge, turn on the pump, and check the pressure. In doing it this way you have fuel pressure right at the fuel solenoid.....and that's about as good as it gets. Just make sure you always check it on the same "leg" every time.......I run two Pro Race foggers so i always check it at the solenoid which is furthest from the regulator because that has the highest pressure drop.

    Now, about you loading up and back firing on the line. My car did the same thing until i hooked up the timing control module. Pulling out that much time manually is going to cause the engine to load up with fuel.....and when the nitrous hits it.....BOOOM! Been there, done that! Keeping the timing "normal" will help alleviate loading the engine up.....which will probably help you. Now, as far as the ignition goes.......a stock distributor and a 325 shot?......Hmmmmmm? Plealse tell me that you at least have a good box feeding it. You could also be blowing the spark out, which could cause it to load up and backfire. To me, your timing sounds fine. I have a 3 stage retard box that i use and launch off the brake with a 2 step and haven't had a backfire since i got all of my timing contol equipment in place.

    Email me if you have any other questions. I have only ran foggers, so i can't help you with the specifics of your plate tune up. But from what you've described, you're not far off of the way i run mine......

    Best to date....8.65 @ 161 on true 10.5's
    Temporarily Retired.....

  25. #25
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    Well Dave, I had a good idea that the engine loading up was indeed the problem, I just like as much input as I can get about a problem, two heads are indeed better than one. I have checked fuel pressure previously holding the plate over a bucket, and checking it that way, and I use a full size autometer guage (2 5/8 face) 0-15 psi. However, I am now going to make a flowtube just to ease tuning a bit. As far as the distributor goes, it is a locked down duraspark unit, backed with an msd 6a, and an msd master timing controller with 4 channels of retard up to 10 deg of retard on each channel. However, im also installing a crank trigger setup as we speak. But still, my main conclusion to the ultimate cause of the problem is loading up on the line before the hit, I normally flip the toggle switch just before the nitrous run to retatd the timing, but now Im going to set it up where it retards instantaneously when the nitrous is on. Thanks
    Torque Monsters Inc.

  26. #26
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    I don't put much faith in those Autometer 2 5/8" gauges either.....but to each his own. Look around for a 4" gauge and you'll find one for $40 or less. One other thing.....the "T" gauge i talked about above should work fine for a plate. After all, whether you are flowing through a tube or a "T", 300 HP of fuel is 300 HP of fuel, a plate or fogger is immaterial.

    Good luck
    Temporarily Retired.....

  27. #27
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    Ohhhh....your talking about a fuel pressure tester guage. I have one of those in my shop, but It never even crossed my mind to use that! It is a snap-on tester set with a 5" face....it would work well. It is a two guage set, one low 0-15, and one high 0-60, I usually only use it to check fuel injected engines, hell Ive never even touched the low pressure guage.
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  28. #28
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    Maybe someone can help me.

    Saturday i ran a 7.67 at 176mph. Using the pro shot fogger i ran 40 nitrous jets, 38 fuel jets..and took 8 degrees of timing out, leaving 30 total. The flow was set to 10.5, and 30 lbs from the fuel pump. The car ran clean and hard. I checked the plugs and they were still fat, but not terrible. So yesterday, i installed 42 nitrous jets, and kept the 38 fuel jets. When i went to get on the transbrake, the car almost died...i lifted, it came back to life...and off i went. After getting it straight i still ran 8.45 at 176mph, it was running real hard on the big end. After watching it on video it was blowing black smoke at the line, the plugs read rich too. How can this be?

    Im starting to believe that maybe my line from the bottle is too small for the bigger hp setup? The pressure is there, but maybe not the volume due to the small line?

    Any help is appreciated
    Last edited by JGlass; 10-29-2002 at 12:30 PM.

  29. #29
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    nitrous tune

    what size line do you have from the bottle to the splitter?
    SCUMBAG LOW-LIFE BECAUSE I RUN NITROUS

  30. #30
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    It's a number 6. After thinking about this some more though...that cant be the problem. The run before when i ran with the 40 jets the car had no problems..just a lil fat. I then put the 42s in...and it died on the line...just like it did a few weeks ago when i had 40 gas, and 36 nitrous. The line worked well for the pass with the 40 nitrous jets..so even if it had 42s..the line would still supply the same amount of volume as it did for the 40s. Have any other ideas?? Could it possibly be some water in the line?? Humidity etc??

    Thanks

  31. #31
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    nitrous tune

    bottle pressure?,was it real high? sounds like the selenoid wasn't opening on the nitrous side and the fuel selenoid just dumped in raw fuel. I have saw older selenoids fail with high bottle pressures. You need no more than 950lbs when you come off the line. any more is excessive. you have to stay in the sweet spot.
    SCUMBAG LOW-LIFE BECAUSE I RUN NITROUS

  32. #32
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    I run exactly 950 lbs.....and the solenoids are new this year...and we burp the system at the carb before every run. So, if it were the solenoid failing...that would be 1 in a million. Thanks for the help so far..any other ideas??

    Thanks

  33. #33
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    JGlass

    You are obviously a good tuner, I think you have some sort of a basic problem. do you use a timer of any sort? I need some of your help myself. is that all the timing you are taking out? tell me more about your tune up. do you ever run 2 stages?
    SCUMBAG LOW-LIFE BECAUSE I RUN NITROUS

  34. #34
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    Originally posted by JGlass
    I run exactly 950 lbs.....and the solenoids are new this year...and we burp the system at the carb before every run. So, if it were the solenoid failing...that would be 1 in a million. Thanks for the help so far..any other ideas??

    Thanks
    Take your entire system apart and clean EVERYTHING. I had the same problem this spring and it turned out to be a bad bottle fill that gooped up everything in my system. Once i took it apart and cleaned the lines, distribution blocks, and solenoids the problem went away. It ran pig rich sometimes, not as bad at other times, and my nitrous consumption was WAAAY down. No matter what i did to it, it still ran rich. That's where i would start anyway......
    Temporarily Retired.....

  35. #35
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    DAVE,

    what kind of stuff did you find in the system?
    SCUMBAG LOW-LIFE BECAUSE I RUN NITROUS

  36. #36
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    It was a white paste like substance with some brown in it also. It almost looked like liquid pipe dope, but i know it wasn't because there was too much in the system. The brown looked like rust so i assumed it was some sort of liquid contamination that caused rust to form in the 65 lb tank i used to fill my 10 lb bottles.
    Temporarily Retired.....

  37. #37
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    Dave,

    I fill my own bottles!there is supposed to be a filter in line.
    SCUMBAG LOW-LIFE BECAUSE I RUN NITROUS

  38. #38
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    fah what kind of carb do you run
    3time NMRA champ
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  39. #39
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    I run a Holley HP 1000+ cfm.
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  40. #40
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    857

    I dont run 2 stages...just right off the line..off the trans brake. Maybe next year i will put a 2nd stage on...but no one can touch my 7.67 e/ts as of now. I can still go way up on my nitrous now, so im not rushing for a 2nd stage. That's right, only 8 degrees....ive ran 7.74 with 32 nitrous, 36 fuel and only pulled 4 degrees out. Again, it was a little fat...but it wasnt a problem. Ive never lost a head gasket or had any trouble due to the timing/nitrous. This latest problem is the only thing ive come across. Im starting to believe that it may be a bad fill. As of right now i am only getting 1 run out of a 10lb bottle.

    When i got to the track i had the track store fill the bottles....i put the new bottle in, ran the 7.67...and it was toast..only 3 lbs left in the bottle. So i put the other bottle in..and then had this problem. Im starting to believe that i may have received a bad nitrous fill....this will be the last time i have the track fill my bottles. Im kinding of doubting that the solenoids and lines could be plugged up..because the car ran great once i got it going, and straightened it out. It went 8.45 at 176mph.....only a few mph shy of what it did when it went 7.67. I'm going to pull the lines and solenoids and cleam them just in case..maybe it had some water in a low spot...and when the nitrous hit it...it froze??

    For next weekend i am going to go up on my line size from the bottle, get some nitrous from where i normally do, clean the system and run it again. Hopefully things will work out. If not...maybe ill just stay at 40 nitrous, 38 gas till next year. The season is almost over and no one has come close yet. So why rush?

    If you have any questions i will try to answer...i dont know everything...im still learning alot.

    Thanks again
    Last edited by JGlass; 10-29-2002 at 12:34 PM.

  41. #41
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    GLASS

    what kind of a motor combo. do you have?
    SCUMBAG LOW-LIFE BECAUSE I RUN NITROUS

  42. #42
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    Its a 572 BBC in a corvette double frame rail round tube chromoly chassis. The engine is built by Mike Casey/Richard Maskin...uses a merlin block, dart heads, dart tunnel ram, and two 1050s.

    I want to get this kit tuned to perfection, then ill put a fogger on my BBF which is in a 10.5 W tire mustang.

  43. #43
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    FAH Q

    I run the same carb,90 in the front 91 in the rear.
    SCUMBAG LOW-LIFE BECAUSE I RUN NITROUS

  44. #44
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    ok here's my set up sumped tank Aeromtive carb pump with one single 8AN braided to the regulator spliting with 6AN line to carb and another 6AN to the NOS fuel solenoid i have a 225HP big shot plate i ran it once in 60-70 degree weather and it went 10.52@126 i have the pressure set at 8psi .the last time i went to the track was at English town NJ i tried the true street tour and my fuel pressure went down to about 6psi and i made a pass NOS and BOOM! poped both head gaskets the weather was colder than the last time i went to the track .what do you guys think is happening i have it set at 8psi then it goes down to 6psi then some days it goes back to 8psi fuel pump is new i changed it cause i thought it was my holley blue pump but it's still doing the same thing.am i taking a big risk running it like this with a single line running both NOS and CARB? combo consist: 306stock short block ,Canfield heads,Victor JR,750 DEMON,MSD everything,and NOS cam ,with a Dynamic C4.any help will be apreciated,

  45. #45
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    I don't think that a Holley blue pump is capable of feeding your motor AND a nitrous system. It sounds like it's not keeping up and that's why your pressure is jumping around. It could be your filter plugging or a line getting pinched somewhere. However, i'd be more inclined to think that you need to upgrade to a BG 280 pump or better(or equivalent in another brand) if you want to run your motor and spray off of one pump. If you play around with nitrous when your fuel pressure is fluctuating you're eventually going to burn your stuff up. Consider yourself lucky that all you hurt was the HG's......
    Temporarily Retired.....

  46. #46
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    blue pump

    go ahead and move up to at least a bg-400,you will probably continue to go fsater as you go along. the 400 will take you along way!
    SCUMBAG LOW-LIFE BECAUSE I RUN NITROUS

  47. #47
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    Re: blue pump

    Originally posted by 857
    go ahead and move up to at least a bg-400,you will probably continue to go fsater as you go along. the 400 will take you along way!
    I DONT KNOW IF YOU NOTICED BUT I HAVE AN AEROMOTIVE HOT ROD PUMP THE GUY FROM AEROMOTIVE SAID IT'S CAPABLE OF HANDLING 700HP I KNOW FOR A FACT IM NOT PUSHING THAT MUCH HP ALSO I REPLACED MY FILTER AND CLEANED LINES WHEN I DID THE PUMP A FEW MONTHS AGO .

  48. #48
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    sorry dude

    I won't reply to you no more! I was just tryin to help
    SCUMBAG LOW-LIFE BECAUSE I RUN NITROUS

  49. #49
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    Re: sorry dude

    Originally posted by 857
    I won't reply to you no more! I was just tryin to help
    DID I SAY ANYTHING WRONG? I JUST TRYING TO GET HELP FROM YOU DUDE ! COME BACK!!! COME BACK!!! I JUST WANT TO KNOW IF I CAN USE THE PUMP WITH A SINGLE #8 LINE .I APOLIGIZE IF I SAID SOMTHING TO OFFEND YOU.

  50. #50
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    pump problems

    I think you need to set your fuel pressure flowing. you pump is probably not the problem. how are you setting the fuel pressure? give us all the details
    SCUMBAG LOW-LIFE BECAUSE I RUN NITROUS

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